Zionists demand the right to Palestinian land

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Member	Zionists demand the right to Palestinian land
_sketchy_ Member	9/19/2006 1:39:00 PM Coulter is this true?

_sketchy_ Member	9/19/2006 1:54:00 PM Presenting Zionism and Israel Be Proud. Don't be afraid to say that you support Israel and that you are a Zionist, but always be careful to explain that 'Zionism' may not be what your audience may think it is. You are a Zionist. You are not Zionism. Always be clear to separate between your opinions and personal ideas from Zionism. Remember the audience. You don't need to convince committed Zionists. Arguments that may be "convincing" to you, don't necessarily carry weight with those of other faiths and backgrounds. You aren't going to convince members of the Aryan Nation or the Hamas either, so there is no point arguing directly with them. Don't be negative. For example, there is no constructive purpose in saying, "There are no Palestinians." It antagonizes people and it is not a tenet of Zionism. Even if you could prove that there are no Palestinians, it would not lend any legitimacy to Zionism. Avoid dubious claims and inconsequential issues. If you say "there were no Arabs in Palestine before the Jews came" and someone proves that there were, you lost the argument. If you say "Israel became a nation in 1312 BCE" someone will (and has) pointed out that there was no kingdom of Israel before about 800 BCE, and that nobody could possibly be sure about the precise year when the Jews formed a nation. The right of the Jewish people to self-determination does not depend on whether or not there were Arabs in Palestine, when Israel became a nation, the vagaries of the Ottoman census, the relation between Khazars and Ashkenazi Jews or whether there was a Jewish majority in Jerusalem in 1870 or 1844, nor even on who shot Muhamed Al-Dura. You don't need to defend everything Israel does. If you insist that Israel can do no wrong, you will lose the dispute, since no country is perfect. Germany killed six million Jews and started two wars, the United States killed Indians and dropped two atom bombs, China suppresses free discussion and occupies Tibet (possibly the longest occupation in the world), the French committed atrocities in Algeria. All of these countries have a right to exist, and so does Israel. Refer to common values that are respected by everyone - The Jews are a people and have a right to self-determination. Israel promotes democracy, and human rights, including rights of women, gays and other minorities.
_sketchy_ Member	9/19/2006 1:55:00 PM
_sketchy_ Member	9/19/2006 1:56:00 PM Refer to common values that are respected by everyone - The Jews are a people and have a right to self-determination. Israel promotes democracy, and human rights, including rights of women, gays and other minorities. Don't use language or rhetoric that angers people needlessly - Zionism is for Republicans and Democrats, leftists and rightists, religious people and atheists. There are Muslim supporters of Israel too. It is pointless and self-destructive to attack "leftists" or "Muslims" or non-observant Jews as a group. It is usually not helpful to say that "God gave Israel to the Jews." After all, fanatic Islamists say "Allah gave Palestine to the Muslims." Most people do not accept that a state can be founded to support a particular religion, or that religious claims provide a legal basis for nationhood or sovereignty over particular lands. Start with basics. Even people who advance the most sophisticated-seeming arguments often have very shallow knowledge. They may argue with seeming knowledge about some obscure and dark point in Zionist history that you never heard about, but they think that Israel is the size of France, and that Arabs and Jews lived happily together in the Middle East before 1967 or 1948. Be sure to counter falsehoods and common misconceptions that have been systematically spread by anti-Zionists. Some examples: - Jews did not all arrive in Palestine after 1945, because of the Holocaust. There was a considerable Yishuv (Jewish community) that had been growing in the land of Israel for a hundred years. It would have been much larger if the British had not stopped immigration in 1939. Israel was not created as a special favor to Jews because of the Holocaust. It was created to give the Jewish people the right to exercise self-determination. - Arab-Jewish enmity did not start in 1967 or even 1948. Palestinian riots and massacres of Jews began in 1920 or even before. - The Arab "Nakba" (1948 flight of refugees) occurred because the Arabs opposed the UN partition plan and went to war, led by Hajj Amin El Husseini, a Nazi. - No Arabs were displaced by Zionist immigration prior to 1948. The Arabs of Palestine prospered and there was net Arab immigration into the Palestine Mandate area. See Zionism and its Impact - Israel did not get very much foreign aid from the United States before 1967. The victories of 1948 and 1967 were not due to US support or intervention. - Israeli Arabs, contrary to popular opinion, can and do serve in the Israeli army. They vote and can buy and own land, including state land. - The "Law of Return" includes members of the Jewish people, even if they are not Jewish according to orthodox religious law. It is not a religious criterion for immigration. Several other countries have similar laws to allow repatriation of nationals. --Presenting Israel and Zionism http://www.zionism-israel.com/proud_zionist.htm
_sketchy_ Member	9/19/2006 2:07:00 PM FAO Londonkev. You forgot to adhere to this part: You don't need to defend everything Israel does. If you insist that Israel can do no wrong, you will lose the dispute, since no country is perfect.
mythos Member	9/19/2006 2:48:00 PM they must be self-hating jews and anti-semites.
_sketchy_ Member	9/20/2006 7:51:00 AM ^ hehehe It is pointless and self-destructive to attack "leftists" or "Muslims" or non-observant Jews as a group. Oh dang it coulter, I think you screwed up this one
_sketchy_ Member	9/21/2006 10:46:00 AM This website gets even better August 25, 2005 To me, the quest for peace and coexistence with our neighbors is an integral part of Zionism. I support peace because I am a Zionist. The longing to be a 'Free people in our own country' is incompatible with the 'ideal' presented by settler Zionism, of ruling over another people in a Bantustan-like autonomy, or forcing peaceful people to leave their homes against their will. This view of Zionism may not suit some Israelis. Even more, it does not suit some Jewish superpatriots abroad. They live in Chicago or Los Angeles, but they are willing to fight to the last Israeli to save the "holy land" of Gaza or Tapuach. --Zionism and Peace - A Zionist Credo (http://www.zionism-israel.../zionist_peace_credo.htm) Cynic you live in Las Vegas right?
mythos Member	9/21/2006 12:17:00 PM this should be addressed to coulter and londonkev.
_sketchy_ Member	9/21/2006 2:48:00 PM ^ Well they are not the only fanatics around here though
_sketchy_ Member	2/5/2009 1:48:00 PM Let's add Belibra to this list
Belibra Member	2/6/2009 8:33:00 AM Yes always the name calling. This gives you away all the time as a hater, a hate mongerer. one who enjoys to promote hatred. it's a childish tactic, showing how immature you are sketchy, name calling. I am sure mature people are very impressed with your nonsense. Then again, call me whatever you want so I am not associated with the stench of you.
_sketchy_ Member	2/6/2009 1:37:00 PM Yes always the name calling. This gives you away all the time as a hater, a hate mongerer. one who enjoys to promote hatred. it's a childish tactic, showing how immature you are sketchy, name calling. I am sure mature people are very impressed with your nonsense. Then again, call me whatever you want so I am not associated with the stench of you. LOL Maybe I'm the only who sees this insanity, but are you saying Israel drops bombs on poor, blockaded, defenseless people "with love" and not "hate" so everyone should like war-mongers like you???
madlove Member	2/7/2009 4:35:00 AM
Belibra Member	2/9/2009 4:54:00 AM Every one of those deaths is the fault of Hamas. A group who uses civilians as human shields - this is who you love? this is who you support? Even under their only hospital, Shifa hospital, they built their bunkers and tunnels, knowing that Israel would not bomb them. A government that does not even build more hospitals for its people, but instead sends rockets to kill Israeli civilians. Israel also sent 100,000 text messages and cell phone calls to the civilians that were situated on the Hamas weapons sittes, including their booby trapped schools and mosques. Israel had no choice but to try and weaken seriously the hamas. The Hamas was getting to the point where their rockets could provide much more extensive damage to the entire of Israel, as we saw that they had accelerated to Grad rockets with a longer range. Hamas which stole power anyway from President Abbas, he is the President and was supposed to be in charge of security in Gaza.but defenseless Hamas killed over 1000 Fatah people, both soldiers and civilians.
Belibra Member	2/9/2009 5:03:00 AM Oh yeah did you see the news on Friday the UN demands that Hamas stop stealing the relief supplies and reselling them. Should I say Laughing OUt loud? no it's too sad. Israel reported this very same occurance during the war itself but you would have said Israeli Propaganda.
mythos Member	2/9/2009 4:02:00 PM Every one of those deaths is the fault of Hamas. yeah totally. i heard it was actually hamas flying those israeli planes, helicopters and tanks and then shooting at the civilians. i also heard it was hamas, dressed up as IDF, shooting civlians from close range. oh and did you hear that hamas hit UN buildings where women and children were hiding, with israeli airplanes that shot shells with phosphorous? it was all hamas' fault.
mythos Member	2/9/2009 4:09:00 PM Oh yeah did you see the news on Friday the UN demands that Hamas stop stealing the relief supplies and reselling them. not that you have 0 credibility with the information you share in these forums, but, it's better to post links. this is what i found: The United Nations accused Hamas on Wednesday of seizing humanitarian aid from one of its Gaza warehouses and the European Union has accused Israel of obstructing the entry of needed goods into Gaza. from haaretz: http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1062251.html too bad you're all about misinformation.
Belibra Member	2/9/2009 5:47:00 PM No you are about lies and falsehoods. I am posting about the UN stating thas hamas is stealing the items and then reselling them. Israel lets in humatarian aid as needed. Hamas in Gaza murdered scores of men—they were called collaborators, but that's short-hand for any personal grudge—tortured, shot and their bodies left to rot in the streets. Egypt tried to send ambulances and doctors into Gaza. Hamas blocked entry at the Gaza-Egyptian border. Next thing you know the world media ran video of crowded Gaza hospitals without mentioning the medical aid that Hamas callously turned back. Hamas fires mortars from the UN school, and yet the world media blames Israel for subsequent deaths. Israel made over 90,000 phone calls to the civilians in Gaza warning of impending attacks so they could seek shelter. But Hamas took advantage of these phone calls to use the civilians as human shields. The international media are mouthpieces for Hamas. And far too many believe that any methods used against Israel are legitimate for they are pathological Jew-haters disguised as “mere anti-Zionists.” Yes, by sending rockets against civilians time after time for many years, Israel finally fought back and the Hamas supports and lovers lving in the west are up in arms. Someone finally told these brave hamas 'fighters' that it was time to stop the agression and violence and that they will NEVER destroy Israel as is their desire and indeed as is written in their charter. hamas used schools moques, anything civilians to hide out and shoot Israel from and Israel said stop this insanity now.
_sketchy_ Member	2/9/2009 6:40:00 PM Alright enough of Belibra's propaganda-driven drivel, let's go back to reality for a minute here Here is the compilation of statements from several Israeli people lacking a thirst for violence, with common sense to realize what REALLY is going on over there, and courageous enough to say it despite what the right-wingers of their country will do or say against them:
_sketchy_ Member	2/9/2009 6:41:00 PM